Interview with Ottavio Dantone
It seemed inevitable. In spite of the increasing number of reports of success particularly from abroad, the Italian baroque ensembles rarely managed to carry out wide-ranging productions, which actively involved the most important Italian institutions, opera houses included. And so it was that even very important productions- no need to cite examples- did not achieve the success they deserved , much to the mortification of the musicologists, performers and stage directors involved who saw their commitment reduced to a handful of performances in a restricted part of the country. Very discouraging to say the least, especially when compared to the ambitious productions of the leading French and English ensembles , who were frequently to be seen on the most prestigious stages in the world. The tables were turned last year when Accademia Bizantina, directed by Ottavio Dantone, began their sumptuous production of Orfeo by Claudio Monteverdi, with four theatres vying to receive them, the Ponchielli of Cremona heading the list. Public approval coupled with the unanimous approbation of the critics convinced the group from Ravenna to aim even higher, by launching a complete version of the operas by Monteverdi. And what was the result? The four theatres which had engaged Orfeo were joined by other four , a resounding success which even the most popular of melodramas find it hard to achieve, a success which will reach new heights next year with the ’Incoronazione di Poppea”. The turn about took place last year when the Ponchielli Theatre in Cremona bravely launched the complete versions of the operas by Monteverdi entrusting Accademia Bizantina, directed by Ottavio Dantone, with the task of “re-reading” in sequence “Orfeo”, ”Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria” and “L’Incoronazione di Poppea” for the theatres in Lombardy: Cremona, Como, Brescia and Pavia.
Their great success, acknowledged by both public and critics alike, encouraged four other theatres of Reggio Emilia, Bari, Ravenna and Ferrara to include “Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria”, in their programme.
I had occasion to speak to Ottavio Dantone about this great success shortly before the beginning of the first night in Cremona.
Maestro Dantone, besides being one of the less known operas by Claudio Monteverdi, “Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria” is perhaps the most difficult and risky to perform, as it presents more delicate and subtle passions compared to those which characterise “Orfeo” and “L’Incoronazione di Poppea”. So, how did you approach Montiverdi’s score?
With my usual respect. I have to admit that before studying the score for this project I was not very familiar with it. This did not turn out to be a problem, however. Actually, when I can I prefer to start from scratch. Perhaps I should make it clear what I mean: to be unfamiliar with what is considered one of the most important musical works of the early seventeenth century is not something to be proud of, quite the opposite, but it did mean that I looked at it as if through a microscope, so to speak.
An important aspect for a historically informed performance…
Quite. It ‘s an immense work which requires constant effort, but which, contrary to what many believe, does not leave much lee-way for a Pindaric flight. For baroque music imagination is gift which comes in very useful later when you get down to performing it. When faced with the score, however, the most important aspect to consider is a correct interpretation of the code given by the composer. Yes, this opera is very difficult because, compared to “Orfeo”, where the recitar cantando (reciting through singing) was a fairly generalised status – apart from a few brief symphonies – in “Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria” there is a continuous stylistic passage and a great variety between the recitar cantando of the ariosi and the laments.
One of the distinctive features of baroque rhetoric…
Yes, that’s right. In a certain sense the lament may be defined as a sort of middle course between the arioso and the recitar cantando which denotes a very free but clear, rhythmic structure, often punctuated with brief instrumental pieces. What’s more, in “Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria” there is a buffo part which, as far as we know, is the first in the history of music. For all these reasons, when facing an opera like this one, written practically on only two lines, it is of the utmost importance to understand the meaning of the rhetoric and dramaturgy that the composer wished to convey to us. This preparatory phase has been made possible through study of the treatises and eye-witness accounts of the period which allow us to understand exactly the composer’s intentions, from the point of view of the rhythm, both prosodic- that linked more to the “words”- and rhetorical – that concerned the affections- as well as that of the structure.
What is the outcome of such an approach?
A credible and realistic reconstruction of the opera from both a musical and theatrical point of view. If you consider the laments, for example, like that wonderful one of Penelope at the beginning of the opera. Seen as a whole, its rhetorical structure is classical., with an introduction, the narratio and the peroration, all the typical structures of the baroque oratorio, and all the usual figures, chromaticism, changes of intervals, various moments of tension, emotion, reiteration and so forth. All these details are to be found in the score. From this point of view it’s a relatively easy matter to stage an opera like “Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria”. The difficult part is to make it comprehensible to a modern audience. In fact, if the codes written in the score almost four centuries ago by Monteverdi have not been lost, and remain there to be interpreted, the greatest risk is not understanding their purport, which would prevent the audience’s comprehension of the language we are speaking.
I gather, from what you have told me, that this is an opera full of human emotions, unlike the rigidity and artificiality of what is generally associated with baroque opera..
I would like to be more precise about this aspect, if I may. If we’re talking about seventeenth century baroque opera – because that’s what I mean by “baroque”- since the repertoire of eighteenth century opera is profoundly different- everything that takes place, both rhythmic and non rhythmic, was conceived so as to appear natural. In other words, it tried to be, or to imitate, what the words were able to convey. We must bear in mind that in the case of “Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria” we’re talking about recitar cantando, not only of reciting or only of singing. When talking of recitar cantando – or if we invert the term as they often did in those days, cantar recitando (singing-reciting), we immediately understand that the two aspects were closely linked to each other. That is recitar cantando was the most natural way of singing, and more similar to the spoken word. We have to look closely at the sentences, try to express them in words, find the meaning that the composer and the librettist meant to convey to us and then attempt to convey them as liberally as we can. In this sense I agree with you, seventeenth century music and study of vocal music in those days were able to express human passions with the greatest realism and sincerity.
In about three hours of music, what are the main keystones on which you built the dramaturgy of “Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria”?
Well, the stage direction plays a key role in the dramaturgy. In fact, it must be said that this opera is supported by this type of direction thanks to the music, and the music holds up thanks to a good dramaturgical structure, which owes its perfect expression to the acting. In my view, the key moments in the music are Penelope’s lament which opens the opera, Ulysses’ lament, when the Phaeacians abandon him on the shores of Ithaca, Irus’s lament, after the death of the Suitors. Although moments like the landing of the Phaeacians are outwardly very spectacular, so from this point of view, great spectacular scenes are gained from the landing of the Phaeacians, the competition with the archers with the successive death of the Suitors, but the scenes of greatest intensity coincide with the lament, which is the symbol par excellence of the expression of affections.
So we can say it’s a sort of intimist reading which delves into human passions …
Yes, in a way it does. But the most important aspects of “Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria” emerge from its conflicts. Similar to most seventeenth century baroque operas the main aspects of “Il Ritorno..”are conflict, surprise, wonder, amazement, grief, the moment of poignancy, or intimacy, and then at last the final scene, which I particularly like, closing as it does with the couple kissing, but without turning the moment into a show. At first I had thought of closing with a sinfonia, but in the end I decided for an ending that was softer and more intimate. And in this way the conclusion of the opera also provides the key to the entire reading.
Concerning the performance of the music itself, what were the main choices you had to make, for example what about the basso continuo, which must be an element of fundamental importance in an opera of this type?
The basso continuo is obviously very rich, a choice that allows us the widest possible range of colours. As you will see, compared to the other sections it is predominant, accounting for as many as ten, no eleven instruments, since one instrumentalist plays both the viola da gamba and the lira-viol.
What part does the basso continuo play in an opera like this?
First and foremost, the rich colours of the basso continuo ensure a strong definition of the characters. From the point of view of the instruments, in an opera like this of which about eighty percent is written only for the basso continuo voice- with the exception of a few interventions by Monteverdi- I have taken the liberty of adding colour also through use of instruments which are not part of the basso continuo, for example the violins, cornets and even trombones. I would point out that the trombones are always used as closely as possible to the concept of the basso continuo, that is as an integrating part of the harmony and in line with the voice parts, never as virtuoso parts; in other words, the violin never plays for its own sake but as an accompaniment to the singers, who are, I repeat, the protagonists of the action. I continually reminded the instrumentalists that we are all at the service of the words and the voices, this is what emerges from Montiverdi’s score.
Talking about the singers, I cannot help but note the great preponderance of Italian voices, among whom also Makoto Sakurada, a Japanese tenor who speaks with a perfect Bolognese accent…
Yes, he, does, doesn’t he! You see when I speak of Italian voices I ‘m not necessarily referring to an Italian–born singer, but to a singer with an Italian mentality and pronunciation. Makoto has been in Italy for a long time now and sings perfectly in our language, so he is virtually a native singer. In my view, when performing an opera like this – or any of Handel’s operas – there can be no question of hesitant or imperfect pronunciation, it just wouldn’t be tolerated here in Italy. In the past few years also abroad this aspect has taken root, so much so that now in Germany, France and Britain there is a call for Italian singers. In Italy, and especially in Cremona, a city of extraordinary Italian musical tradition and home town of Monteverdi, it would be inconceivable to have singers who were not able to understand all the nuances of the text.
Still on the subject of the singers, a quick glance at the programme reveals a cast of stars, since this production contains some of the best voices on the international baroque scene. What can you tell me about the main parts ? How were they chosen?
Well, each singer was chosen on the basis of his or her vocal skills. As you can imagine, it was no easy matter drawing up the final cast, because over the past years Italy has brought to light so many singers of great talent. In a certain sense we can say that our choice took into account two variables, on the one hand, we had to find the best possible singer for each main part, and on the other hand, we had to try to maintain a certain continuity in the voices within Monteverdi’s trilogy, since I wanted to create a group that performed well together, because what I required of them in the first opera “Orfeo”, I wanted to repeat in the staging of “Il Ritorno di Ulisse in patria”, and I would like to maintain this for next year’s ’Incoronazione di Poppea” .So far we have achieved our goals in that many of the singers performing in “IlRitorno di Ulisse in patria” are the same as those who did “Orfeo” a year ago. Obviously, in this production, some changes were made to particular roles. For instance, for the parts of Penelope and Ulysses, performed by Sonia Prina and Furio Zanasi, we had no doubts, but we had to make some adjustments, as in the case of Minerva, which required an extremely flexible and virtuoso singer like Roberta Invernizzi, who has very few rivals in Italy.
This stage-production of Ritorno di Ulisse in patria is part of a very ambitious three-year project , which will be performed in several Italian theatres like Cremona, which can be proud of its well-established baroque tradition, but the others through this project are giving out the important message of the increasing vitality and success that baroque repertoire is gaining in Italy. Could you tell our readers something about this great project?
Our project came about in a very simple way, it all started from the idea that the Ponchielli Theatre in Cremona would be staging “Orfeo”, a production that did not, at first, necessarily imply performance of the complete cycle of Monteverdi’s operas. The thought of launching this three-year project began to take root from the fact that an opera like “Orfeo” had not been put on for such a long time; we were, however, aware that an initiative requiring a cast of this type, an ensemble of period instruments, and above all, a number of theatres willing to take it on was not a challenge to be underrated . Now we are half-way through the project I think it’s safe to say that we have passed the test: the proof being in the enthusiasm of our audiences after every performance. In any case for me the greatest achievement has been in re-proposing this type of music to the public of the twenty-first century. Of course, there have been other performances in the past, most commendable in their intent, but perhaps the communication between the performers and the audience has not always been successful. As far as I can see, the public which has filled the theatres to see our production has shown a perfect understanding of our interpretation of Monteverdi. One only has to consider that in the first year of our project only four theatres for a total of eight performances were involved, whereas this year the number has increased to eight theatres for a total of sixteen performances. Given this interest, the project automatically took on the trilogy with the same orchestra. Yes, because, at first, continuity of the project with the same orchestra was not foreseen.
This sends out a strong message, I believe, which will give the Italian philological movement strength and support throughout the world. If I’m correct, Monteverdi’s operas have so far been performed above all by foreign orchestras and soloists, I’m thinking, for example, of John Eliot Gardiner, who has recorded for Archiv – and who can be taken to represent the greater success of baroque opera in a country which, at least as far as opera is concerned, has always shown more favour towards nineteenth century opera.
Oh, undoubtedly. The messages that we have been receiving are certainly positive. Particularly from traditional theatres , where I have had the great pleasure to see more and more staging of baroque or eighteenth century operas in theatres like the “Opera House” in Rome and other great theatres around the country. Being traditional theatres ,as their names suggest, they have always tended to favour eighteenth century opera, whereas our real “tradition” is to be found further back in time. So the signals that we are receiving are telling us that, both now and in the future, Italy is going to give increasing space to what is not so much a rediscovery as a return to the original language of opera. Of course, we must go on listening to nineteenth eighteenth century opera, like Verdi and Puccini, but it is just as important to understand how this type of opera came about and realise that is unthinkable to make comparisons, that it is more like a journey through the centuries that has brought with it changes in the language of opera, following the tastes of the public as well as changes in the philosophical concepts of music. This is the most fascinating part of the discovery; if you want to do nineteenth century opera with no knowledge of seventeenth centuryopera, that indispensable basis is clearly missing.
During the meeting I had with Ms Cauzzi, Head of Monuments and Fine Arts Office, she clearly showed a great interest in the orchestra and immense enthusiasm for this project. How does Accademia Bizantina feel about performing Monteverdi here in Cremona?
Well, they couldn’t be more enthusiastic, to be here in Monteverdi’s birthplace. And to add to this, we are performing in a theatre where we have found a great sense of co-operation, enthusiasm and tranquillity which is hard to find in opera houses. I have already conducted several operas, but the peaceful atmosphere of the Ponchielli Theatre is ideal for working in. With Angela Cauzzi we have formed a friendship which is more than just a professional collaboration , there is a such a total understanding of what we would like to achieve and great trust in one another, so what more could you ask for….
Besides this project, which between 2004 and 2005 engages you in sixteen performances up to the end of February, after which follows the staging of the Incoronazione di Poppea, what does the future hold for you?
The future, which from many points of view is also the present, has many great things in store for us. For Accademia Bizantina this period is of fundamental importance , we ‘re riding high, but we’re working very hard, we are recording for the prestigious label, Decca, together with famous soloists like Andreas Scholl, as well as for Naïve for the recording of another opera…….
Can you tell us which one?
Yes, it’s Tito Manlio by Antonio Vivaldi, we’re going to perform it and record it in July…….
Is it part of the Naïve project?
Yes, it’s based on the Foà-Giordano Fund conserved in the National Library in Turin. Then next year we’ll be touring with the programme of the second disc that we made for Decca.
The Arcadia cantatas?
No, actually that was the first recording we made for Decca; the second disc is based on a programme that includes some of the arias that best represent the castrato Senesino, again with Andreas Scholl. This tour takes us to many cities, some of which represent the most prestigious theatres in Europe; at the same time we have many concert commitments for instrumental music as well as several new recordings. The November issue of Amadeus includes a CD of Pergolesi’s Stabat Mater, and Porpora’s Salve Regina. And then …lots more work and projects, and operas to be defined. It’s wonderful, very stimulating to have so much to do!
Giovanni Tasso
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